Why Good Food Is No Longer Enough | Alexandra Leung, Co-Founder of Monogic | EP 11

Justin (: 00:33

Restaurants have never had more ways to attract attention, but attention is not the same as loyalty, and a cue outside the door does not necessarily mean people will return.

My guest today is Alexander Leung founder of Monogic, a Hong Kong-based marketing and PR agency specializing in food, beverage, and hospitality.

Alexandra believes there's an important difference between opening a venue and building a genuine concept.

After entering the industry through one unforgettable restaurant launch, she later founded Monogic during the pandemic, when restaurants were being forced to translate deeply physical experiences into a digital world almost overnight.

In this conversation, we explore why good food is only the starting point, what restaurants misunderstand about branding and PR, whether influencer marketing actually creates customers, and why the experience promised online must match what happens when a guest walks through the door.

Restaurants have never had more ways to attract attention, but attention is not the same as loyalty, and a cue outside the door does not necessarily mean people will return.

My guest today is Alexander Leung founder of Monogic, a Hong Kong-based marketing and PR agency specializing in food, beverage, and hospitality.

Alexandra believes there's an important difference between opening a venue and building a genuine concept.

After entering the industry through one unforgettable restaurant launch, she later founded Monogic during the pandemic, when restaurants were being forced to translate deeply physical experiences into a digital world almost overnight.

In this conversation, we explore why good food is only the starting point, what restaurants misunderstand about branding and PR, whether influencer marketing actually creates customers, and why the experience promised online must match what happens when a guest walks through the door.

Justin Sun (: 02:14

Hi Alexandra, welcome to the curious concierge.

Alexandra (: 02:17

Thanks for having me Justin, I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Justin Sun (: 02:21

Same here and thanks so much for spending some time with me today. I've been really looking forward to this conversation as well because you sit in a part of the hospitality industry that I think most people might not fully understand, but it's obviously becoming more important than ever. You're the founder of Monogic You've worked with over hundreds of F&B brands across Southeast Asia.

and you're essentially working on the layer of hospitality that most diners never see, right? Which is branding, PR, storytelling, visibility. So today I really want to unpack that. What actually makes a restaurant work from a branding and marketing perspective? So let's start with you. How did you first get into hospitality? What drew you into this world?

Alexandra (: 03:07

I actually have a story I told many people about it It's actually started through my cousin. She's a year older than me She is a F&B designer very specific as well F&B only When I was 21 years old she brought me to the launch party of Black Sheep's restaurants, Austria Marzia launch in Wan Chai Before that I've never seen

Something something in this scale before and also never seen the energy this before people are so creative Fun and they are incredibly talented. They all gather that night to create a great experience for their guests So that night completely opened my eyes to this hospitality world So from that on I'm basically hooked. I actively try to look for jobs in hospitality I was doing university back then so I worked as a beer promoter

I worked at nightclubs, bars, restaurants, I tried everything. And eventually, right before I graduated from university, I joined a restaurant group to manage their social media and digital presence. For this story, I actually did tell one of the co-founders at Black Sheep restaurants as well, it's a very specific incident that caught me into this industry.

Justin Sun (: 04:20

Okay, amazing. Well, for those listening, Black Sheep is a really large and popular F&B group based out of Hong Kong. And for those living in Hong Kong, I'm sure you've probably dined at a Black Sheep concept restaurant previously.

Was there anything specific in that night that really left a huge mark that made you want to build something this?

Alexandra (: 04:40

I think Black Sheep is always really famous for their launch party. today, when we work with them, I say the same thing. For me, it's more about seeing how all the talents, no matter from operations, chefs,

They all come together that night to create a great experience. That night it was also, I believe it's also the the Fleming, the hotel launch together as well. So it's combining food and beverage experience with hospitality. And I think, that's such a great night. I enjoy every single part of it. So I'm not sure today we can go back to this scale yet, because after COVID everyone is still, trying to recover.

it's the very first time I experienced this industry full on so decided you know what FNB there's nothing else I would do

Justin Sun (: 05:27

Well, it sounds a great party, obviously. hospitality is an incredibly emotional industry. What about it appealed to you personally? You've worked at a F&B concept or group doing their digital presence. You probably know that it takes a lot of hard work and service mentality is a very different type of space. It's long hours.

super customer-facing and you know especially for restaurants too you the margins sometimes are really slim you know what kind of made you continue on especially having already a little bit of a taste while you know in your post-college job

Alexandra (: 06:05

I think it's the pure passion of people, know, they're all very creative and talented. And I think you have to be really passionate, you know, to, be an F&B I always believe there's a really huge difference between venue and concepts. I think it's two different things because everyone can open a venue or restaurants, but only top talents will build a thing called concepts. They build the story, they build the experience.

And I remember a really wise industry expert. He opened multiple restaurants and it's very popular in Hong Kong and in the world as well. He once told me that hospitality is all about engaging five senses. So it's not just about what you taste, but it's from the moment you walk into the restaurant to what you smell, what you taste, it all tied together. So for me, I do think you know, building a concept or hospitality in general.

is a true art form if you do it right

Justin Sun (: 07:02

that's very well said because there is a difference between a venue and a concept.

Alexandra (: 07:05

Mm.

Justin Sun (: 07:06

And I would love to maybe dive a little bit deeper into that because as you mentioned, you know, there is a distinct difference. And so at what point did you start realizing that restaurants, you know, didn't just need good food or operations, but actually need needed help creating something unique, communicating who they are as well.

Alexandra (: 07:26

I think before Covid time, it's a really interesting time. So FMB industry, especially in Hong Kong, was quite traditional. It relied really heavily on traditional PR and media. That's all. I do always think Hong Kong picked up a bit later on the digital side. Back then, restaurants only heavily relied on media relations, word of mouth. Although I do actually graduate from PR school,

school.

Because when I was starting in uni, I already heavily involved with doing my own blog, own account on social media since very young. So I kind of focus quite a lot on social media and digital. So although I'm PR background, I actually focus more on social media and digital later on. And I realized there's a really strong disconnection between restaurants just focusing on word of mouth and restaurants serving dynamic food, but their marketing kind

stuck in 10 years ago. So that's the moment I realized actually maybe social media digital or digitizing for restaurants would be a really good opportunity.

Justin Sun (: 08:28

And so when did you start Monogic and what gave you the confidence to do that?

Alexandra (: 08:33

So it was in 2020. Back then I was still working in a hospitality group.

So back then at COVID time is quite chaotic, right? So working in F&B is not really stable. So to be honest, back then I have a lot unpaid leave and to a point no paid leave and even eventually it's direct salary cut because it was a really tough time, no dining. So during that time, I actually helped my former employer to build an online delivery platform. And then we saw some really great results doing digitization. And I realized that I could actually use my

social media and digital skills to help offline focus business to survive. And especially my partner who was also my husband, he's actually a, back then he's a data analyst and focus a lot on digital. So I was just randomly asked him one day, why don't we combine our, our skillset to do something, right? If it's unstable, my

If it's unstable anyway, might as well do something you love, right? and another reason is quite personal. Back then I did had experience workplace bullying. I want to actually build my own team, own company and create a healthy and supportive environment. So toxic behavior doesn't exist. I want to create a great space for people to, you know, passionate, creative talents to work together. So that's another personal reason.

which I actually rarely share, but actually that's also one of the reasons why.

Justin Sun (: 09:53

Well, I'm sorry that you had to go through something that and appreciate you mentioning because I think at the end of the day especially in Hong Kong where we are in such a very corporate environment and very You know, even though we're quite modern. I think some folks are still quite hierarchical and it's

Alexandra (: 10:09

Mmm.

Justin Sun (: 10:10

hard to voice that you know to Champion who you are and to protect yourself. So appreciate that it you know what if the company's aren't giving you what you need go start your own

Alexandra (: 10:21

you

Justin Sun (: 10:22

Clearly, know, Monodric has been doing extremely well. So for those who are listening, why don't you tell them, Alexandra, what does Monodric do and how do they help their clients?

Alexandra (: 10:31

So from our logic, we are an end-to-end full service marketing and PR agencies, specializing in F&B and hospitality. Our headquarters is in Hong Kong, and we also have branch in Singapore as well. We essentially act an external in-house team for F&B or hospitality groups, or even for hotels. We will help end-to-end from PR to digital marketing to social media.

basically even Sha Hong Shu as well, the last two years it has been really trending. meaning that chefs and operators can focus on what they can do best, which is hospitality while we handle all the marketing and F&B.

Justin Sun (: 11:10

You opened Monogic during or post COVID at a time where restaurants definitely needed help. Perhaps you could share with us that journey because I'm sure at that time, restaurants

either had to close down or rethink their digital strategy many had to rely on food delivery services. from a customer perspective, restaurant industry was, kind of weak. Everyone is slow to get back to its original state.

Alexandra (: 11:38

I think it's certainly a very interesting time because there are so many uncertainties because you won't know what's happening, right? Because I believe Hong Kong has done five times a dine-in ban. Like you're not allowed to dine in after sex or after lunch or to a point I think you can't even open for a bit for a while. But then the struggling part is Hong Kong's F&B scenes was really offline focused because they're really traditional with PR and media.

So when COVID hits, actually really...

it actually really happened so fast that suddenly all the food traffic dropped to zero and restaurants are really struggling to you know translate their in-person dining experience into digital format because they've been relying on the same thing for so long I saw they do good food they do good hospitality things will be fine but but things are not fine because when offline when you can't even talk to your customers offline how can you attract them and it's digital part so I do believe there's

few years when they know they need to do digital, but they think they can wait. then suddenly COVID hits. It's all of sudden. So they don't really know how to sell themselves or the brands or the products online and how to pivot to delivery with without cheapening the brand because back then, of course there's Deliveroo and other delivery app as well. But the commission is also there. So it's also part of the cost. So how can they, you know, build their very own digital storefront at that point is become something that has

to be done really fast.

Justin Sun (: 13:09

Very, very interesting. And so at that time too, you guys were a new agency or PR firm

Alexandra (: 13:15

Yeah.

Justin Sun (: 13:15

on the market. You mentioned traditionally, previously most restaurants were relying more on your traditional kind of marketing. What gaps did you see in the Hong Kong F&B market with the traditional agencies compared to perhaps what you guys were doing?

Alexandra (: 13:30

think traditional agencies tend to be quite generalized. I'm saying they're more specializing in the service, not to the industry. So they might be doing a bit of lifestyle brands, they do a bit of fashion and they do a bit of F&B. But I'm coming from an F&B background. So I know that hospitality speaks a completely different language. Sometimes it's as simple as, you know, knowing how to communicate with chefs, you know, they can be artists, know, how to speak to them, how to speak to the operations team.

really unique language. So Monologic's ability to truly understand the day-to-day operation realities of a restaurant and to actually provide tailor-made strategies based on the concept of the restaurant become our very important goal.

Justin Sun (: 14:13

And when you first launched, what was the kind of clients that were coming to you for help?

Alexandra (: 14:18

I think at first there's definitely a lot of independent restaurateurs and passionate chefs. They have great food but they obviously didn't actually put the resource to expand the digital footprint. So back then they had zero digital footprint. So they were really desperate to survive during the pandemic. And they really need someone that understands digital marketing and also speaks their language because they're obviously at a survival mode. They don't have the time to

hold us our hand and teach us how to do it.

they want someone that can do digital and understand the restaurant. So back then we become a really good fit because we have F&B background and we also have digital background. So, and the other big part of our client back then is we also had big restaurant groups and hospitality groups coming to us and build their very own digital platform so they can actually have a proper online storefront for experience.

Justin Sun (: 15:13

Well, before we get into branding and different types of restaurants that you've worked with, I would love to go back just a little bit because you mentioned some traditional PR firms that dabble in multiple verticals, lifestyle, F&B know, consumer, what have you. What would you say is the main difference between F&B marketing and perhaps other similar hospitality marketing in

field.

Alexandra (: 15:38

I think the difference of our agency is we really speak the language. And I think that's actually very important because when F&B is so ad hoc and so fast every single day, I do think operators or chefs, they really have no time to explain these industry norms and that with you. And we do have, instead of focusing on services, we focus on the industry. So we do have the industry expertise that we are able to

pick up really fast and handle these ad hoc situations. Like for just as simple as having a negative review from a restaurant and how would an agency handle how to handle crisis management. I think that's already really different. If you ask general agency not saying they're not good. I'm just saying their way of dealing crisis will be PR focus for us dealing with crisis is the industry focus. So I think that's initially the difference between a general agency and an

industry specialized agency.

Justin Sun (: 16:33

I can totally see that. And so I would love to also now dig into maybe your time with brands. When you look at a restaurant brand today, what

Alexandra (: 16:43

Mm.

Justin Sun (: 16:44

tells you whether it will succeed?

And perhaps these are not your clients, know, something that just opened on the street or have been rather successful. I'm curious, is there a metric that you look at or something that kind of says, okay, this place might be a really good, successful one.

Alexandra (: 17:01

I think it all comes down to alignment. So if the story they're telling online or to a public perfectly match with the experience the guest has when they walk through the door, they usually will succeed. I mean, of course, the basis to have good food and good quality hospitality. But then I think there's many times that we see there's a disconnection between you have a beautiful online aesthetic, beautiful photo, but the actual service, it falls apart.

And I think I strongly believe that if the brand built purely for social media virality It definitely won't last because you know now they people's time spent a way too short and if you build a business model just attract them to come here once it really won't last because retaining customers is really important a viral gimmick maybe get you know get you have a line on the door for a week, but once internet moves on there's

next viral concepts you basically failed because you cannot attract people again because you passed the honeymoon period and your honeymoon period probably shorter than usual restaurants because you're trying to you know just ask them to try one or two stuff at your restaurant right so i think that probably would be

I actually said the opposite thing. I think that would definitely won't succeed when I see, you know, when I see there's only one or two thing and everyone on social media just saying the same thing. Then I already know after that, what's next? So, yeah, I think I said

Justin Sun (: 18:25

Yeah.

Alexandra (: 18:26

the opposite. Okay, but yeah.

Justin Sun (: 18:28

if they don't have a digital throughput, you lack

that connection and good service good food is really important and as you mentioned there was also a difference between concept versus venue and you really have to balance

all of them really really carefully because one thing can't really fall the restaurants that are not as Digital savvy,

or perhaps again, as you mentioned, chefs, folks, budget, they just don't have enough time for social or digital presence. Do you think some restaurants hide behind good food as an excuse for a weaker branding?

Alexandra (: 19:03

I think if you truly make amazing food there are some restaurants that they are here for 50 years, 60 years. I mean, they spend a long time to actually build that customer database, right? So for those, think, yeah, if they keep the food very consistent and good, people will just keep coming back. But then for them, they will face another issue, which is your audience or customers are aging with you. So how do you attract new customers?

and make the brand sustainable is also a very big question. We work with a few brands that they have over 50 years history. think one of the brands we work with have a hundred years history as well. how to keep your customers actually growing old with you. So after that, how do you maintain it? and how do you expand? They are still end up gonna find the answer is they still have to, you know, focus on the younger generations because they are the next generation that going to spend a lot. So that would still be, I think,

good food is a basic to have and then afterwards you still have to do marketing. And marketing is not something that happened these few years only because social media it happened even back then you're doing word of mouth you're doing PR media piece these are all marketing right so yeah I think I hope I answered the question.

Justin Sun (: 20:15

definitely does. The baseline is always good food, but it's always interesting to then think about, you're right, especially these Cha Chaan Tang or these noodle houses that have been around for years.

You you have your neighborhood neighborhood go-to's you have these people who have been supporting them for for their whole life and as you said How do you then attract the next gen right? at this time storytelling is really important and you don't have to Obviously be as flashy maybe as some brands because

you want to keep that heritage aspect as part of you know their brand That said though

in your experience, do diners connect more with the chefs, with the concept or the experiences?

Alexandra (: 20:56

nowadays with social media, I think people are bit sick of social media, even for me grow up with social media right? I think people actually crave real human connection and true hospitality and I think brilliant concepts would draw them in but seeing the passion of the chef and feeling you know the warmth the hospitality of the staff is actually what creates an emotional bond.

People want to know the faces behind the food. Maybe I can share an example. One of my favorite restaurants to go for dim sum is at Elements, Pak Lo. Pak Lo is a brand with over 50 years of history in Hong Kong already. Now handled by third generations. And I go there every single weekend, same day, same time with Kiran. And the team actually knows my name. They know what we They know what appetizes.

we want, they know exactly what kind of tea we will order, so they will call you they even will remember you know your name how to call you and and it's not just for us but for all their you know frequent customers and I think that human touch makes me feel so welcome and that eventually helped me to build a strong habit because if I go into Dim Sum I want to go for great experience I want to go for someone that some people that an area that I feel familiar so there are plenty of good food choices in Hong Kong

But it's only for me. It's always the team that wins my heart

Justin Sun (: 22:17

that is very important the concept is the experience. And at the end of the day, if you can't feel that genuine feeling across social and then not being able to experience that in person or perhaps opposite, something really cool online and then you go there and it's cold and it's kind of whatever and you don't experience what you

Alexandra (: 22:36

We're

Justin Sun (: 22:37

mentioned, this kind of true hospitality service mindset.

It's not gonna be as attractive, right?

And so, maybe we can go a little bit more into talking about PR specifically, because I think there's a lot of misunderstanding there. You know, what do restaurants think PR does versus what it actually does? Because you mentioned you have to, get into the operations and really create this storyline. So it's not just everything external marketing. Sometimes there's some, you know, internal feedback and things you really need to change. So why don't you tell

a little bit more about restaurant PR and what you guys do versus what perhaps other people think they do.

Alexandra (: 23:14

Yeah, I think of course PR base will be know reaching out to to build a good media relations now they with social media is also influencers they are basically in our channels that we will reach out to I think F&B specialized PR what other thing we do other than the service itself is looking into with our experience in the industry to looking at the food quality the hospitality quality

reviews, crisis management and even menu engineering because sometimes we can tell that for example a new restaurant they have something wrong with the portions that is too small that people we know that when people come the very first time it's very important to decide if they will come back again so these are where our team will come to help sometimes we even do mystery diners because we indirectly try to tell the client that there

something wrong so we are going there to you know give a full report but I think for us we are really passionate in the industry and we want to make sure that when a brand launch and we also detect some cases we they are closing down they tell us in few months if I still won't make it work I'll close it down and then we're going to find the reasons why and then we will have to come up with ideas so that's why many of our marketing strategies are not cookie-cutting they are all tailor-made to the brand

And I think that's partially why we call ourselves specialized PR because I think there's a required definitely require a lot market industry knowledge and even even knowledge to FNB and how customers preference look. So that's I think that there are quite different parts that we will handle on a day to day compared to you know regular PR focused service.

Justin Sun (: 24:59

I love that because you're not just a PR partner, you're really a true business partner. And so have you ever considered calling yourself differently instead of a, perhaps mainly a PR company?

Alexandra (: 25:12

So we always try to call ourselves end to end PR and marketing agency specialized in F&B and hospitality. The reason why it's so long because I don't think there's, I think we're the very first agency that doing this exact concept. So it's always so long, but I think that best describe us. We actually took some time to fine tune this tagline, but it's, I would want to.

Justin Sun (: 25:33

It's hard.

Alexandra (: 25:35

Yeah, and the name itself basically

We give a meaning afterwards is actually from name generator. Kieran and I are really bad at naming. until today, people are still struggling to pronounce do you, they call it monologic. they really struggle to call the name, but to describe the brand. Yes. I take us some time, but we want our client to know we are end to end comprehensive. we really understand the industry. and we can bring in a lot industry knowledge.

to them as well.

Justin Sun (: 25:59

And I would love an honest answer from you, especially now that we're so much reliant on digital marketing. It's really part of the core marketing strategies for any restaurant opening.

Has influencer KOL culture diluted the value of PR? You know, they have a reach and they're doing something different and every influencer brings a different kind of story. What do you think of them? Are they important? Do you think they sometimes are distractions to this strategy?

Alexandra (: 26:29

I would see influencers bloggers as an agency owner a channel

I think it depends on the strategies as well because we did come across some incidents of course as agency will compare we are being when when client open for pitch we are comparing with them so sometimes client will ask us why don't you do X amount of influencers because your opposite the agency you are competing with they can do triple amount but then I was why would you do triple amount because many of these influencers will actually if they saw it

online they actually might convert into customers so you're paying all this fnb calls and having a large amount of kol for the sake of doing it and i don't understand why because if we do the strategy right we do the messaging right and we invite the right people it's about quality more than quantity so we're never competing on quantity as well because it's no point of you know bringing those those kols some of them they are foodie right they will some of them actually will come and pay for

food then why would you give them all for free it doesn't make sense to me. We also really value media relationships English and Chinese media because they are another channels that has been in the industry for so long and they do you know they do bring a very different perspective than what influencers would bring but that said influencers recently in this few years foodie with food bloggers

they do get quite a lot of negative...

reviews simply because maybe they try the food, it's not tasty, they would still say it's tasty, they're not honest. that part I think is a really tricky part because in their point of view, are coming, they got the invitation, they of course want to be polite, but then end up actually it might cause some misalignment. So it goes back to the alignment part. When I see food bloggers have an amazing big portion of food and then when I go there,

It's half amount that actually will cause negative effect So I do think it's not about the influencers But it's also about how con how restaurant concepts maintain consistency you some some of the bad practice could be you know that that person is an Influencers is an editor. They are going to you know, give you coverage. You give them amazing food But with customers you just treat them very differently and that is something that we definitely always recommend our clients not to do and

I do think our clients never done that but I do see experience that and I think there's nothing wrong of influencers sharing their opinion because when they having it, it's great Even us as a customers going to the restaurant twice the first time it could be good the second time be terrible it's probably not they intended to lie but it's just there's different treatments and I think that's definitely something we always suggest our client not to do that and to ensure they have a good experience

and more importantly to ensure their customers have a consistent and great experience. And I think that's how you make sure your restaurants and concepts are sustainable.

Justin Sun (: 29:26

No, that's a great answer and it's very honest because I

think

Alexandra (: 29:28

I think.

Justin Sun (: 29:29

influencers sometimes are stuck in between of whether this is a business versus as a customer and what should they say. But the core of it really is about the consistency because you're right. Plating might be extra special that day, or maybe there's more shrimp on the plate, right? Some more seafood

Alexandra (: 29:43

Yeah.

Justin Sun (: 29:45

just for the influencer. And in reality, it's not that. so consistency is key, but kind of going back to the restaurant owners.

a little bit when restaurants chase media coverage kind of what you mentioned this person had all these influencers versus you know your strategy which I also agree too let's you know refine and have a know a curated list of people come instead of everybody under the sun do you think sometimes for these owners it's more about ego than strategy?

Alexandra (: 30:13

I think they think it's a better deal right because they are doing business too I get it because if the same price you get 20 bloggers versus 60 bloggers of course you would think that's a better value but better value doesn't mean better quality though right because for me my point my point of view is if you pick the right people to come

all these people you're supposed to give free meals with they actually will convert into customers which is more long-lasting right because Doing a better a bigger quantity doesn't mean better quality and I usually I tend to be quite honest and direct in business so I would just say I think is you are just giving out free meals for no reason and I think usually they will understand it but if they don't if we don't align I get it too because there's different strategies for different people, but I

do always want to make sure that we go we do business in a genuine and honest manner I don't want to just doing this for the sake of doing it because I always consider when we're doing invitation Everything is cost for them So that's why we think from an F&B or owner point of view it's all about cost F&B is cost having people sitting on that table is a cost it affect your turnaround and all that so so all this stuff is considered from my side and I usually would just tell them directly and thankfully they usually

accept that because we're just saying it from an F&B language so I think they get it.

Justin Sun (: 31:29

influencers have such a big part on influencing us where to go but today the way people discover restaurants has changed so much where are people actually discovering restaurants today?

Alexandra (: 31:42

those

are really those are really good questions.

firstly, I actually don't think AI will ever just to say a disclaimer, I don't think AI will ever replace real F&B content because I think food is a really different thing. We need to see real, you know, what, how it looks to crave it, right? Cause if you generate a perfect food photo, I know exactly when I'd be at that restaurant, it won't look that, right? So that doesn't really work for our industry. but I do think search behavior itself is changing. Like, you mentioned, Justin, you said a really good point is that

Influencer is a channel but we don't know how long this channel will last because it's the same for every single channel we don't know how long it will last so the reason why Influencers is a great channel because people naturally when they look for restaurants they're not only looking for the official content they want to look for how others experience it all comes down to human connection they want to see the real experience it's actually a point for them to reference

That's part of what the digital footprint is here for. But I do think nowadays AI is so convenient. back then when we looked for food, we would go to Google, go to OpenRice go to TripAdvisor, try to look for the platform to suggest us where to go. But now you just drop a question on AI, or where's the best Spanish restaurants in Hong Kong? And then you already get a full list. So I think moving forward, more and more people will actually use

AI to ask, where should I go next? Rather than, spending time to scroll on social media. There's a, many multiple articles on news saying that people actually going on social media less and less and rely on AI more and more. for me, I how we utilize AI and how to build, digital footprint online to make sure AI recommend you or say the right thing, right?

messaging is just becoming more and more important. But I do think influencers won't will still be there because there are a group of people want to see how other experience as long as the content is genuine, they will still look for it. So for me, AI tools. I think Google map can also do a bit you know, asking questions on Google map directly. So that's definitely a trend that I see.

for the future few years at least.

Justin Sun (: 33:56

Yeah, and that's very interesting, huh? And so on that note, whether it's AI, whether it's for social media,

built more for the algorithm than for the guest?

Alexandra (: 34:08

yes, our algorithm is for the social media engagement, but I think to the end of the day, humans actually engage with emotion. So I think we would still need a genuine human story or chef story brand story to have the algorithm to pick up. If a brand just simply go for trendy content, I don't, without a brand stories, I don't think it would last. And I think if, if you mentioned people restaurants just building it for algorithm, they are usually the kind of restaurant that only have

one hit and then they will be slowly decline.

Justin Sun (: 34:38

because we also see a lot of these, a couple years ago post-COVID, everyone wanted to bring in all these Japanese products Japanese cheesecake or different type of sweets. And in a way too, I'm sure maybe the owners or distributors are also thinking, this is the hot next product.

Let's rely on the algorithm. Let's rely on digital marketing to attract and gain businesses. What do you think about those sort of tactics?

Alexandra (: 35:05

you

But for me, always think that something a restaurant or a brand always is a very common mistakes is the only thing of that moment to get it viral then what's next, right? Because you know, Dubai chocolate is such a big thing. Everyone is doing Dubai chocolate, something pistachio, something. So after you launch a product, what's next? Right. Because it's not it's not unique to a brand. It's just unique to the trend at that point. And I think having a really a brand and also didn't really

echo back to your brand most of the time you do Dubai chocolate something it really don't remember people won't remember the brand they will remember I had a Dubai chocolate something there so those kind of

I do think those kind of brands maybe they would get a great result for that specific product but I'm not sure that actually help with their overall branding or help them with sustainability because for business to be successful the point is sustainable but if it's not, if it's just a one-off thing then I'm not sure that's worth it for them

Justin Sun (: 36:05

Yeah. Well, sustainability, longevity is obviously an important part of having a successful F&B concept. Hong Kong is one of the most competitive dining scenes in the world. how does that shape marketing strategies?

Alexandra (: 36:19

think you just have to be really creative and really agile.

every single day I don't think you can just be good in Hong Kong because Hong Kong have so many great amazing restaurants here I think you have to be exceptional and also you know top of mind I think because there are so there I'm sure yeah on the news there are many restaurants closed now but there are also many new restaurants opening every single week and the honeymoon period for restaurant opening or concept opening here

would say back then was six months, now it's maybe three to six. So it also bring back to our previous questions. So launching marketing, launch marketing will only last three to six months. And for us as a marketer, we actually have to constantly thinking what's next. How do we keep it sustainable? Because we don't want to just have the client for three months, six months, and then we're done. always, many of our clients actually work with us more than a year, two year, or even some of them four or five years. How do we make sure that

we keep their brand ongoing, getting attention, getting an equal span of market attention and make sure they are sustainable. So that's actually one of the biggest goals and things we think about because many, many restaurants, to be honest, they are popular for three to six months and then they are just declining. It's really, really difficult in Hong Kong to have clients that restaurants that can last five years. I think five years already.

really really big milestone and then 10 years some of them 30 years 50 years these are really really difficult to do and also really difficult for PR to do as well I think you know for us to pitching an old brand and keep it fresh to people's mind is more challenging than doing a launch and just you know ride on the trend so that's definitely something that I always tell my teammates well I think they're really really great whenever there's a long history brand they try to bring something new and make it happen

for them and I think this is way more challenging on the PR or marketing perspective.

Justin Sun (: 38:16

Hong Kong sounds extremely tough Also great opportunities,

you operate in both Hong Kong and Singapore, and Singapore itself is also a very competitive dining scene. What do you think is the difference between the two cities?

Alexandra (: 38:27

There's actually a few things.

for Hong Kong, it's the localization part because for Singapore, it's a lot more culturally diverse city because it's built with multiple groups of people while Hong Kong, to be fair, is mainly Hong Konger, Chinese,

Justin Sun (: 38:40

Chinese.

Alexandra (: 38:42

Cantonese. for Singapore part, the content and messaging need to actually reflect the diversity because the different groups of people, have very different religions, very different preferences.

And in Hong Kong, I do think it's segmented quite differently because we target a lot on the local audience and now to mainland audience as well So how do we focus on the mainland marketing is also part of a really big, you know chapters when we do marketing and Now they more and more international travelers coming back to Hong Kong these are also something that we will look at and fundamentally is how The city was when I first I have to be honest when I first start in Singapore. I thought it's very

similar to Hong Kong but in fact it's actually not at all it's really different it took us quite a while to actually crack the market

and to understand that and also the customers behavior are quite different. I definitely Singaporean they are more price sensitive they really look into they're really into discount numbers looking for rewards you know when I use a credit card I rewards Hong Kong or many of us we

We don't, we just enjoy the vibe and experience. I think it's actually the approach can be really different. Although many people think Singapore and Hong Kong are the same, very similar, but actually every city have a very unique way of marketing.

Justin Sun (: 39:57

Very interesting and talking about diversity you're right because Singapore for example with

Alexandra (: 40:01

Mm.

Justin Sun (: 40:02

the Malay community You have to focus on halal food and how does a

Alexandra (: 40:05

you

Justin Sun (: 40:06

establishment both attract halal? Focused diners as well as you know non halal focused diners, right? You want to really capture the broad audience. I'm curious too about location Hong Kong I feel majority of restaurants are always congregated in perhaps the central area cause a kind of in the near the Kowloon

know, a harborfront. In Singapore though, I do feel there's quite a bit of different locations that have clusters of restaurants.

Alexandra (: 40:32

Yeah.

Justin Sun (: 40:33

What is the kind of customer mindset when it comes to traveling to a restaurant for Hong Kong versus Singapore?

Alexandra (: 40:40

I always think a successful restaurant is destination shopping though. So if you are doing really really well, even you are in I don't know, Tian Shuai, why people, I Tian Shuai might be a bit extreme. Maybe you're in Happy Valley, people will still go.

Justin Sun (: 40:54

Yeah

Alexandra (: 40:55

And I think nowadays with social media, digital, it's the beauty of it is you actually can shape it as a destination as soon as you do your marketing right. And I think marketing is not to be hard selling, but it's actually really important.

Food traffic is important. me, believe the concept of is central. They are not seeing themselves for the food traffic because I do think if you truly have big concepts good restaurant concepts, require reservation anyway. So when people make the reservation, they are actually seeing it as a destination. They come all the way for the restaurants. I think normally people won't walk past a

street and say you know what today I'm gonna do a two Michelin restaurants that dinner a market sale or it won't happen that so I do think picking locations many of the time I mean especially in Hong Kong I think it's more about showing people what is the standard of your restaurant if you're in central as a concept people will naturally think wow you are in a such a packed one of the most dense district for restaurants you must be you know really great and really competitive as a concept

But that said, there are more more restaurants opening in other Kaolin area, Kai Tak for example is a newly developed area. Shamsui Po have a whole street of beautiful cafes. I think it really depends how you want to position your brands. We even have restaurants opening in Cheung Kwan O as well, but they did really great and did really great concepts. People come all the way to Cheung Kwan O for the food. So I think it's

depends how you want to position it you're looking at the rent or you're looking at the branding or the status these are all many consideration operational restaurateurs will have

Justin Sun (: 42:38

Well, that's something new, I suppose, for a lot of people. Sometimes restaurants also have to really consider themselves as a destination, and destination marketing is extremely different. It's a whole different layer that you have to consider. So compared to Hong Kong and Singapore, what do you think from an F&B perspective, which market is actually harder to succeed in?

Alexandra (: 42:57

I think they are as hard because I think first of all brands is not cheap, right? But I think it's different kind of hard. think Hong Kong restaurants is because it's so competitive. Like there's so packed, so many choices. But I do think Hong Kong customers, they have spending ability. It's just how...

you make them spend money on you so i think attracting them is very difficult and Hong Konger are really spoiled with good food so if it's a slip i heard many cases from i sometimes ask friends from other industry because i want to understand their perspective as a customer i will ask why don't you go back to this restaurant again simply because one time i go to restaurant 10 times there's one time i feel upset on something they will never go again they will even talk badly on the restaurant which is a negative word of mouth for the restaurants right

So I think it's the customers we really do have a very high standard. For Singapore on the other hand, I think they have a really beautiful hawker culture and I think that's actually one of the reasons why restaurant concepts really struggle to prove their value because in their mind I speak to you know of course that local Singaporean customers as well they would say yeah yeah there are great restaurants but it's not something that they would go every single week because they have many beautiful great hawker places

they get amazing food. Those are some, it's actually very difficult for them to change the habit because it's just not on their mind. But for Hong Konger, the difference is it's on our mind, but how do you get my attention? So I think the ideas is a bit different, but I do think, I think I know Hong Kong and Singapore always get compared, but I do think if to run an F&B business anywhere is not easy. There's not a single place that's easy, I would say.

Justin Sun (: 44:39

It's very interesting too when you mentioned about Singapore, about hawker culture, because in itself hawker culture, everyone has an opinion about which hawker stand, which location is really good, you know, and there's sometimes branches, but each branch is always different because it's opened by a different family member or something that. And so there is a

Alexandra (: 45:00

Okay.

Justin Sun (: 45:01

whole different layer and a whole different ecosystem that you're actually fighting when it comes to food, which is really interesting.

You've worked with so many different brands in Hong Kong. Are there particular types of restaurant concepts that perform especially well here?

Alexandra (: 45:15

I think it depends on when. For example, I've been in the industry for over 8 years now. So there are good times, good economy times and bad economy times. So last few years, of course, it's not the very best. We're still recovering from COVID. Globally, it's not a very stable time for us.

Even economy is not good, because we work so hard every day We still need a great experience But can we afford an expensive experience omakase or we can also still find good experience in a cafe to try out a viral brunch for example So I do think it depends when do you ask this question? I think nowadays the trend would certainly be some independent for example pasta bars has been really big

because it offers a great experience. It feels an occasion, a celebration experience, but it's not as expensive as fine dining or omakase, but it's still great. So I think the deeper reason is behind the money part, the spending power. So when people have less spending power, but they still want to enjoy a great experience, they will look for something that's great for value, great food, great hospitality. It doesn't have to be fancy.

Nowadays people started to that and I think that's partially why Cafe Bakery got so popular because just around 20-30 Hong Kong dollars I can get a great pastry and great photo, great experience and I think it's all contribute to the economy and if the economy is great Everyone has extra money to spend I'm sure they will all go for an occasion with you know, and the first year with my husband I'll probably go for a free Michelin restaurants for the occasion, but

it all comes down to how's the spending power of customers or the city in general. brands has certainly have to be agile. So we do have experience working with Michelin restaurants. They realize that their pricing is no longer fit the market. They actually do a 50 % reduction. I think that's a really bold move. But actually that give them a double amount of booking.

Justin Sun (: 47:09

think people now realize how fast they have to really adjust. And if there's sensitivity in the market when it comes pricing,

consumer spending, purchase power, right? You just have to adapt to that. Before I move on to the next section, I have a question about the business side of Monogic

made you open Singapore?

You mentioned that it took a little bit of time to really crack the code in Singapore. tell us a little bit of that expansion story.

Alexandra (: 47:36

Honest answer is I thought it's the same. I thought it's very similar.

Because naturally, for Hong Kong, we're really happy with our market position in Hong Kong, and it's great. I would say we are quite ambitious people. want to know what's next. And then we think, Singapore probably will be the closest. And that's how we started. then those things I mentioned to you about culture, diversity, behavior, these are all learned from painful lessons the last two years.

I still think it's good. It's just take a lot longer than I thought. And I think another reason is because I'm born and raised in Hong Kong. I speak Mandarin, English, and I thought, culturally, it should be easier for me to, you know, get to communicate. But then turns out, you know, it's not just about language. It's also about many other stuff. And I think

that's

a lesson we learned. start the business when we're very young, right? So we start when we're 22, 23. And I think all the way, coming all the way until now, it's all about, you know, testing different, making errors, making mistakes to learn from this. so not as specifically deep stories, but definitely lessons that I learned for the next city.

Justin Sun (: 48:44

definitely. since we're talking about different markets, I'm curious to hear your take when it comes to F&B marketing for the Chinese market. Xia Hongshu, Red Book, example, ByteDance. The consumerism in China is very different when it comes to the West or even Hong Kong. What are some challenges that you're seeing? What are some main differences that you're seeing?

Alexandra (: 49:05

one thing very unique about Hong Kong is you know China is very popular to doing live streams and they're doing selling you know vouchers and and and products in Hong Kong I almost think it's not working for some reason Do I know why I don't know why yet I wish I know but it's just not something that we are attracted to and I think that's very interesting because in China is such a big business but in Hong Kong every time someone tried to do it we obviously experienced many platform doing it I

personally get approached to do something that before and it never worked and I think it shows how much you know people think yeah it should be quite similar but it's actually really different they have a very different culture as well and I think another part is the language bit because I think till the end of the day many of our clients they are English speaking they or they are canonese speaking but when it converting the conversation into you know simply converting the language a bit is very different how we

communicate well, how we describe everything well, how we position ourselves well. So now a day for us doing Chinese marketing is mainly attracting Chinese tourists in Hong Kong. And I think that works very well on Xiao Hong Shu. think I personally think Xiao Hong Shu is one of the best social media platform you can get because they combine the algorithm, they have the very great algorithm and they also have a really good search engine. So even for me, when I go travel, I would try to use Xiao Hong Shu and I think it's a really, really great platform

to use and we do have a department specialized doing Xiao Hong Shu as well. So it's definitely getting more and more customers, clients asking us about it. And it's not just limited to Hong Kong, also to Singapore or even other Asia countries Thailand or Korea.

Justin Sun (: 50:47

since we're talking a lot about expansion and different markets, let's zoom out a little bit. What does restaurant marketing look in the next five years?

Alexandra (: 50:56

Hmm, that's a really good question. I think restaurants really need to see themselves as a lifestyle brands concepts not just eateries because

I think people nowadays really going back, especially for Gen Z, are they going back to real human connection? Like exceptional foods is always basic. Like good food is always a basic thing. But we need the restaurant brands to have a unique point of view and unique positioning. So it's a brands that people can actually align their identity, and feel the community is there. And I think this is becoming more and more of the trend. think we can see this trend through more and more, you know, personal gatherings,

small group gathering, they start working with a lot of restaurants to do partnerships. They try to use their space, enjoy the food and also do industry meet up or maybe they all love, they all love cycling. They grew up in a group, which is something that we don't see in the past few years. And I think after COVID time, people really crave real connections. And I think people are actually quite exhausted with just going on social media. So they really craving for that.

think moving forward, restaurants need to look into that and become a community hub more than just about the food itself. How to design the space, how to make sure your table is comfortable, how to make sure the food can be shared and create a good word of mouth is something that I think the next five years we should be looking at. I think maybe people would think as an agency, digital side agency, we will say something about social media and digital. For me,

thinking the opposite side. I mean of course we would need to handle this channel as well but I think apart from handling these channels well we cannot forget the fundamental things of a restaurant.

Justin Sun (: 52:38

That's really well said. It's the full experience that you're getting and a lot of it ends up, you know, lot of it is reliant on the restaurant. There's only so much you guys can do, so much social media and digital presence can do. Do you think we're going to see fewer restaurants but stronger brands or stronger F&B dining concepts?

Alexandra (: 52:58

I think.

I think there will always be new restaurants. There will always be people trying because many people have a misconception that restaurants F&B is very easy to do or even hospitality because The the stand the bar you need is money, right? Like you need the money for the rent and stuff, but actually it's way more than that So we experience many occasion is people from other industry They come here and tell us i'm gonna open a restaurant i'm gonna put in all the money And then after one two years you will see them slowly

gone right and there would definitely always be similar amount of restaurant because there's always need for food for new things and there's also obviously restaurant closed down they want to replace in terms of groups I do think the restaurant groups that actually crack the code will become stronger and stronger which is already happening in Hong Kong or in Singapore and Asia they build brand and experience very well and whichever

I'm not gonna name which group but whichever concepts you go

Belong that belongs to them. You would know it's from them. You would know it's their brand is strong and And the most beautiful thing is they can make it consistent right consistently every single year is the same and I think that's the most difficult thing to do and that's something that restaurant owners always forget is consistent and I mentioned to them so many times you actually have to be consistent and I think a consistent a strong branding and strong hospitality are the three things that

really, really, help a restaurant to stay competitive in the market.

Justin Sun (: 54:26

Well, great advice especially for those restaurateurs or first-time restaurant owners that are listening. Perhaps one more advice to restaurant owners. If they could only focus on one marketing effort, what should it be?

Alexandra (: 54:41

I think controversial newsletter because building direct relationship and a direct database

your very own customer database is very important because technically if you think about social media or you know Openrice or whatever these are all relying on their database you don't have their data right you're just relying on touchwood if your instagram account get blocked you lose everything you don't have a customer connection but EDM old school traditional and always useful and actually less and less

Clients ask us for it because they don't think that they think this is old school They don't think who's looking at email. I tell you actually many people's when they are working They will actually click the emails they actually

Justin Sun (: 55:24

Hahaha

Alexandra (: 55:25

and I think customer retention is everything is really go go back to the last question It's very important to retain customers because how you pay so much marketing effort to get one person to the door Why not paying a bit more to make them stay and come back again, right? That's

the whole life circle of your customer has to be a bit longer to make your marketing effort last. So newsletter is what I think because you own your audience and you don't rent the audience from social media. If you have to pick one thing, then of course in reality, I think you should actually do everything and have a balanced strategy. But if not, if it's just one thing, it's definitely newsletter or even WhatsApp.

community.

Justin Sun (: 56:06

I think community building is extremely important in today's modern age and that's such great advice. And one more thing about founders since we're on this topic, if a founder came to you today with a new restaurant idea, what is the first thing you would challenge them on?

Alexandra (: 56:22

When is your opening?

You'll be surprised actually many clients they look for us either after the restaurant is launched or two days before for example and I think many some of the clients they neglect that marketing actually should build together with your brand stores and usually when I ask that question I would know what they said what marketing means to them already so that's probably the first question

will ask and then after that already get a lot of information and then afterwards of course I will ask for the branding information, what is the story behind but I think how to if you incorporate marketing into your opening strategy already can tell me a lot about how you know how to handle the launch and how effective it will be.

Justin Sun (: 57:06

All very well said. All right, well, this is now my favorite part of the podcast.

Alexandra (: 57:11

Okay.

Justin Sun (: 57:12

It's a quick rapid fire questions. Just say

Alexandra (: 57:14

Okay.

Justin Sun (: 57:14

the first thing that comes to mind. All right, so the first

Alexandra (: 57:16

All right.

Justin Sun (: 57:17

question is, one Hong Kong restaurant everyone should experience.

Alexandra (: 57:21

Not my clients, the Golden Phoenix Restaurant is my favorite. It's a legendary Hong Kong style stick house. I think since 1960s. It's famous for an old school nostalgic sizzling iron plate stick with raw garlic on top at an affordable price. I think it's around 250 per person. it's an essence of the Hong Kong history and it's just amazing food and I love

Justin Sun (: 57:44

One hospitality marketing trend you wish should disappear.

Alexandra (: 57:47

Pistachio everything I do love

to buy chocolate But as much as I would really Dubai chocolate, but I think it's just a bit overdone

Justin Sun (: 57:55

What is the most underrated tool for restaurant growth?

Alexandra (: 57:59

newsletter, EDM, email marketing. It's traditional, but it's really one of the best ways to retain customers and stay in touch with them. Once you attract them to the door, I think you really have to maintain them.

Justin Sun (: 58:11

Yeah, just hotels, direct bookers and really keeping that loyalty customer flowing through. What about one habit every restaurateur should build into their daily routine?

Alexandra (: 58:21

I think read your restaurant's own reviews every day because that actually tells you about a customer or guest. If they don't have review that day, try to speak to one of the guests at the venue every single night just to understand how they feel. The most important is their experience.

Justin Sun (: 58:37

Yeah, I think that's, it's really hard when the chefs are so busy at the back of house and that they

Alexandra (: 58:42

Hmm.

Justin Sun (: 58:43

don't really have the time to go out and ask those questions themselves. And know, front of house, back of house, sometimes they don't communicate as much. Final question

Alexandra (: 58:50

Thanks.

Justin Sun (: 58:50

is, one thing every restaurant should fix tomorrow.

Alexandra (: 58:54

maybe a Google page because I think it's always not fully updated. So it's always good to cross check. I do have some cases saying that, they are closed on Monday, but they actually open. So that's definitely something you should maintain because that's the very first thing people see as well when they, when they search online.

Justin Sun (: 59:09

Definitely. That's also the core basic, right? How do I find you on Google and Google Maps? Well, Alexandra this has been such a great conversation. I feel we've unpacked a side of hospitality and F&B that people don't talk about enough. Before we go, what excites you most about the future of Monogic and where it's headed?

Alexandra (: 59:29

I'm incredibly excited about growing footprints across Asia after Singapore. But apart from that, I think in recent years, we've become more involved in education, industry talks and training. I love to share what we do with the next generations and show them the true beauty and potential of the hospitality industry. Because I think after COVID, you know, back then, before when I was young, hospitality and F&B is one of the coolest industries to

But after COVID that changed because people see that at that point it could be really unstable So I really want to pay our you know our side to pay some effort to tell the next generations the beauty the creativity just how I see from the Black Sheep launch at the very first day right so I want to do a bit more on the education side we actually actively speaks at different universities and in Hong Kong or internationally so we're hoping that next generations they will think this is a cool

industry to be it again.

Justin Sun (: 1:00:25

love that and that's really important because you're absolutely right. I service industry is a very tough industry. It requires a lot of passion and it's a good reminder about how fun it can also be because I'm sure a lot of people now are clouded by social media and kind of post-COVID biases. Well, before we leave, where can people follow your work?

Alexandra (: 1:00:46

You can just look for us on monogic.co on our website, Instagram, or LinkedIn.

Justin Sun (: 1:00:52

Fantastic, I'll put those links in the show notes below. Alexandra, it's been so lovely chatting. Thank you so much again.

Alexandra (: 1:00:58

Thank you so much, Justin.