How Hospitality Design Shapes Human Behavior | John Chow | EP9

Justin Sun (: 00:33

Hospitality design often feels effortless to guests.

it just feels right. A restaurant has the right energy. A bar draws you in without you quite knowing why.

But behind those experiences are designers thinking deeply about space, behavior, atmosphere, and how people interact with places.

My guest today is John Chow, founder of Metagram, an award-winning architecture and interior design studio based in Hong Kong. Originally trained as an architect in Australia, John has spent the past 16 years working across Australia, Greater China, and Southeast Asia, designing spaces across hospitality,

Through his studio Metagram, he's developed a reputation for concept-driven environments that prioritize storytelling and emotional experience, particularly within hospitality and F &B spaces.

the Australian Institute of Architects International Chapter, and he was previously named one of Perspectives' 40 Under 40 Designers.

how hospitality design is evolving, how designers influence guest behavior, why hotel lobbies and F &B spaces are changing, and how design decisions quietly shape the future of hospitality.

Justin Sun (: 01:49

John, it's so great to have you here at the Curious Concierge. I've been really looking forward to this conversation because your work sits right at the intersection of hospitality, entrepreneurship, and how places actually come to life. And on this show, we love exploring not just...

buildings or brands themselves, but the people and thinking behind them. So thank you so much for spending some time with me tonight.

John Chow (: 02:15

Awesome. Thank you, Justin, for having me on. I really appreciate it. I love your show and I've been watching and I think it's just a really great thing to have in this part of the world. yeah, much appreciated and love what you're doing.

Justin Sun (: 02:24

Thank you. Well, I'm excited to get into it. But before we dive into deeper industry questions, I'd love to start with the human story. Tell me a little bit about John. What first drew you into hospitality or this world of building places and experiences?

John Chow (: 02:40

I guess to tell you a little bit about myself, I come from Australia. So originally I'm born Malaysian. So Chinese Malaysian, my parents immigrated to Australia when I was about two. and I pretty much spent most of my life in Sydney. and Sydney is just one of these really beautiful places. if you haven't been, there's always something that comes to mind that has to do with beaches, just beautiful environment and that sort of thing in Australia and great food. So,

I suppose being raised in this environment was kind of being spoiled in a way because I was just so used to this idyllic settings of like Bondi Beach and various other places like that. And Australian houses and Australian design are world-class. So we get these really beautiful residential settings that a lot of people have. They have the space to have big houses. They have the space to have architects design their places. And so when you're raised in the environment where you get to witness this firsthand,

it really does sort of affect the way you view how spaces could be and the potential behind a lot of spaces. And so as I grew up in Australia, I started a part-time job in F&B actually. So I was working in a cafe for, I guess, straight out of high school for like several years. And that paid my way through university, which where I studied architecture in Australia as well. And, you know, I got to know how to do latte art and really the sort of

find things about coffee and I just fell in love with coffee. And if you know anything about Australian coffee, you know it's world-class. So there was a pride instilled as well back then. And so I guess this combination of having this F&B experience together with this design background and architecture played a part in where I am now. So I ended up in Asia about 12 years ago. I moved to Hong Kong from Sydney, a couple of years out of university. And I decided to basically try something a little bit.

bigger. If you're from Sydney in Australia and you don't find it busy enough, well, you got to leave the country. So I ended up in this part of the world and I've been working here since. I think we'll probably talk about past work later on in the conversation, but I left the company that I was working with about, I guess, about eight or nine years now,

Since then, I decided to start a small practice metagram. And the first thing that became apparent was that past experience, that past life I had working in F&B really came in handy. So the people I met, they were able to talk with me at a very sort of understanding, they knew my operational point of view. I knew where they were coming from. They felt they could connect with me a little more. And I wasn't just, you know,

an idyllic designer, so to speak. was able to talk their language. And that basically got me into this world of hospitality, F&B combined with design and architecture. And the company I used to work for and the environment that I'd surrounded myself into with design has always been world-class. So just having these really top-level influences in design and food has basically led me to the place where I am.

Justin Sun (: 05:17

John, that sounds like an amazing experience you had with the F&B background, because I think a lot of people forget that.

it takes a lot of operation knowledge to really craft a good working space. know, baristas, cafes, restaurants sounds like a really serendipitous moment that you got were able to use your F&B experience to really drive some of your upcoming projects. But would love to hear what gave you that confidence? What made you decide to start your own design studio in Hong Kong?

John Chow (: 05:50

so I don't know if it was a moment of confidence or foolishness, but maybe a lack of, yeah, maybe a certain lack of awareness or a lack of, just a lack of, awareness of how difficult it was going to be. mean, it's a real challenge to start a business. And I think, you know, with any endeavor, yours included as well, starting the podcast, you never know. You never really know what you're getting into until you start. And then once you've started most of the time, you know, you've built up the momentum and you just want to keep pushing, right?

So I think definitely what helps in starting a new venture is obviously having a background in that area. So when I first started out, I actually planned just to do sort of home staging. So basically just to sort of decorate houses and help them sell for more.

I tried for months and months to get our first client and we couldn't land one, it was unsuccessful. And then finally someone came to us and said, hey, why don't you just design a house? And I'm like, wait a second, I can do that. Because you my background in architecture and all. I mentioned earlier, I'm an architect and so you normally associate architects with big buildings and whatnot, towers. But the great thing about coming from Australia is that the type of upbringing and education we have is with small projects.

The main type of house in Australia is, the main type of building in Australia are bungalows, homes, residences. So when you're used to working with small projects that size, it's a really hands-on approach. And as a result, know, starting a practice in Hong Kong where we can't always, I suppose, you know, design massive buildings. in fact, quite often we have to work on interiors. It's a lot more approachable with someone that has a bit of background with small projects.

Justin Sun (: 07:20

Right. starting your company in Hong Kong, having a background growing up in Malaysia and Australia, how did you, how did that international upbringing shape the way you see design? You mentioned how bungalows in Australia's, the sizing of those homes actually kind of mimic, the constraints that we have in Hong Kong. But

John Chow (: 07:41

Hmm

Justin Sun (: 07:42

Was there something or is there something that really you're able to triangulate these three places that really shape the way you see design in general?

John Chow (: 07:50

Yeah, I think when it comes down to the ability to design, context and experience is critical. quite often when designers start learning and going through education, they're encouraged to travel and to see the world, to see different contexts, to speak to different people, to sort of understand different points of view. Because the more you realize the variety of different viewpoints out there, the variety of different tastes,

the variety of different cultural norms and cultural correctnesses, cultural incorrectnesses, things like that, you realize that there's a vast, there's a huge variety of truths, so to speak. And as a designer, we have to design according to these different contexts. So the more you're able to like jump between contexts and operate in different places, kind of like a world citizen or a just a resident of the world, so to speak.

it becomes far easier to be able to step outside the box that you're to and design according to someone else's brief, for example.

Justin Sun (: 08:49

And I guess in this case, context, context is key. And also there's a lot of people chiming in to build this context, to build this world, to build this space. And I think a lot of people underestimate hospitality design being very effortless because that's how a lot of spaces make you feel. But behind the scenes, there's a complex collaboration between

the owners, operators, and designers like yourself. So how does that dynamic usually work? Let's put it in the framework of a coffee shop since you mentioned your F&B experience before.

John Chow (: 09:26

Yeah, absolutely.

There's such a, I mean, there's a vast variety of different perspectives that go into opening any business. So when you take into account the, a coffee shop, you often have different points of view. So you have the owner, you have the designer, you have the technical people, you have the staff, you have the landlord of the space, you have the suppliers. It just comes together in a thousand different ways. And when you look,

I'll hire up the sort of food chain at say hotels then you you start to talk about the owner of the building you know you start to talk about the brand standards you know that they're going to making a huge brand and I think what people experience they experience the end result so when they walk into that cafe space they sit down and they say okay this is a beautiful space you know sometimes one little thing might just throw off the experience and and and it's really is it's really

The fact that to make a seamless experience, every little thing has to be in step. Every little thing has to be considered and that takes like collaboration between, you know, dozens of people, often many, people. Cafes are quite small, luckily, so we have the ability to sort of control it. But if you imagine bigger places, large restaurants, hotels, you know, it expands hugely. There's a huge variety of different things that can come into play. every new discipline that comes into play is just...

a greater power, it's just to a higher order of complexity in every single project that we work on. Yeah, I hope that answers that question. ⁓

Justin Sun (: 10:54

No, it does. And I suppose

there's a lot of different constraints that different stakeholders are bringing in. But the design of the space really falls under designers like yourself. so ultimately, how much power as a designer do you think you have when driving some of these larger decision-making?

Obviously, it's a very cross collaborative work to put something out there.

John Chow (: 11:18

I honestly believe that it's a really successful venture is a collaboration. So there are many different characters in this industry. you have the clients who

dead set on a certain way to run things, for example. You have designers who are explicit about the details and the feel and the atmosphere that they want to achieve, or even just as simple as the style that they want to put forward. So, you know, whenever you put these strong personalities together, you're going to get a clash and opinions and everything. And that can often lead to disaster.

But at the same time, can also lead to a lot of success, you and without risk, there's no return, right? So in terms of who drives it, I can't say for sure exactly if there's a recipe that's true for every project. I think it's about finding that balance and then making it work. If there's a client that's got a really strong opinion on how to operate things and how things should be run. Well, I think the designer has to adapt a little bit.

has to be able to see eye to eye with their ethos on how to operate a business. That's critical. If there's a lot of, I guess, conflict along the way, that can't lead to a successful project. I often, when I start projects, I often meet with clients and I say, we're going to be working very closely together for the next several months. We're going to see each other all the time. So what's really important is that we sort of see that we get along and we're able to sort of empathize at a certain level.

Because if our relationship isn't working out and doesn't go strong, the project can't come out well. So I'd actually say the relationship is probably the thing that drives the outcome of a project and how well and how smoothly it runs.

Justin Sun (: 12:55

Definitely.

I think since we're talking about relationship, you you are a founder of Metagram. You're an entrepreneur at heart. You are a leader as well. And I think one thing that often gets overlooked in hospitality is just how complex it is operationally, right? Behind every beautiful space is an enormous amount of coordination, decision-making and leadership. so I'm really curious to hear from your point of view as a leader.

John Chow (: 13:12

Hmm.

Justin Sun (: 13:22

you know, building these projects, what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned about managing teams and bringing vision to life?

John Chow (: 13:23

Yeah.

it's tricky. I guess in terms of managing teams and bringing and creating the best outcome, I think it's a case of

really being able to understand the desires of each of the stakeholders, so to speak, and to really understand with exactly who you're working with. I'll take, for example, there are certain hotel groups that will have, for example, a Bible of the way they do things. And it's more or less a set in stone, 10 commandments kind of standard, right? That everyone kind of needs, all the designers need to fall into check and follow.

The recipe is so distinct and so set in stone and the amount of expertise that falls into the creation of these guidelines is massive. There's a huge amount of experience, there's decades of experience from dozens of hundreds of people. And so the ability to make that situation succeed is to sort of fall in and sort of achieve a balance or harmony of the other consultants as fast as possible.

Within our team, it's also about creating an atmosphere of excellence. So we have a small team at Metagram, but each of our designers share an equal amount of contribution towards our projects. For example, like I called the company Metagram, and Metagram basically means meta being a high level order and gram coming from the word of something written. So the idea is that it's taking a high level concept and turning that into something real.

And this is something that isn't exclusive to me. You know, it can be done by a team of people and that can lead to better results. I didn't call the studio John Chow Studio, for example. I specifically didn't because it's not about me. It's about the process. It's about the team coming together, coming up with these ideas, putting these ideas down on the table together with the owner's ideas, the operator's ideas, working out what's really important to each of the stakeholders, and then more or less coming together to create that end result.

And it's the management of being able to bring out this idea and to facilitate it and to kind of blossom it into something that really is special, that creates a successful project. And I think this is the case for any project, small to large. Large, can be, you you can really see when a project is successful. Small ones, sometimes harder to see. But if there's not good management and not good leadership in that team, like you're saying.

Whether it's from the design side or from the client side or from the project manager side, it's hard to make a great project.

Justin Sun (: 15:43

Right. And it's important to be harmonious for your internal teams that you're managing as well as the external partners and stakeholders. But here's a maybe a controversial question for you, And obviously nothing directed to you. This is more of a general question. But if a hospitality space fails, is it usually a design problem or an operational problem?

John Chow (: 16:02

Hmm.

Well, I it depends who you're talking to. If you're talking to the guy who paid the big bill, he'll probably point at the designer, right? So, In all honesty, think, again, it comes back, this is a boring answer, but it comes back down to, I guess, a bit of everything. I gotta say from experience, quite often, the reason why a project doesn't do so well, not necessarily fails, but perhaps doesn't reach the targets that it was trying to achieve.

is probably a misalignment of expectations early on in the project. for example, maybe someone has a really ambitious dream to create the most luxurious hospitality project in the world, but their budget isn't quite there. That whole expectation from the get-go of this like most amazing place, but misaligned sort of factors, that can lead to something that doesn't quite, you

doesn't quite tick all the boxes. And so when you say fail, it can mean a lot of things. It can mean bankruptcy. It can mean, doesn't quite hit the mark. Maybe it doesn't achieve five out of the five stars. Maybe it's getting four stars or something like that. But I genuinely think it's about expectations from early on. If the expectations are realistic, if the expectations are well planned, if there's a lot of experience that's gone into those expectations.

I think he can have a successful project every single time. So it's amazingly, it's not easy to point the finger at a single role, at a single discipline. I think everyone plays a part. And again, it comes back down to that harmony, right? So when you have that harmony, when you've got that alignment, know, just everyone's working in the same way towards the same goal, I think the outcome is usually a success. Yeah. And then, you know,

market factors and stuff come into play and you can't plan for those right like acts of god that sort of thing so yeah

Justin Sun (: 17:49

Right. Well, well said. I think hospitality is going through a really interesting moment globally right now.

John Chow (: 17:54

Yeah.

Justin Sun (: 17:56

know, guest expectations are evolving. Technology is changing how people book and experience travel or F&B, and

the definition of luxury is shifting too. And so from your perspective, what are some of the biggest shifts happening in hospitality that people might not fully appreciate yet?

John Chow (: 18:06

Yeah.

Sure. Yeah, it's amazing, right? With hospitality, it's such a big thing that you don't really see it coming until it's a norm, basically. So you see some places come out doing some really innovative things. And I think one of the places that's doing really innovative things at the moment is China. So there's a lot of really interesting things coming out of China in hospitality that the world has never seen before.

And it's because China has skipped a lot of the traditional Western stages of development. They've gone straight to digital, right? So AI is entirely normal in China. Technological integration at just insane levels is normal in China. hotels with robots roaming around is entirely normal. And this can be, and this is really, to the rest of the world, they look at this and they go, wow, like what's going on? But in China, it's entirely normal.

Then there are things like customer demands in different parts of the world and emerging markets are different. So for example, I'll call this like hyper-localization and sort of cultural adaptation or authenticity. We basically start to see the habits or the tendencies of local areas start to form the fabric of the hospitality spaces around us. So one thing, for example, is that in China, I'll go back to the China example.

What's quite popular is this whole ordering food phenomenon kind of thing, which is quite normal. So hotels will, for example, have systems built in place to accept outside orders coming into the hotels and the infrastructure around allowing that changes completely. So instead of only having internal F&B offerings, the hotel now has to cater for external offerings of

food and beverage. And that can change the entire economics of a hotel, if you think about it like that. But at the same time, it's been widely embraced because that's what the customer demands in that part of the world. So that's one huge part of one very simple example of how things have changed there. Another one, for example, is extended stays or kind of like digital nomad kind of adaptation. So in places like, say, Vietnam or Southeast Asia,

quite often you'll have people that go down and live for a really long period of time. They'll have resources to get slightly nicer places. So that means that these accommodations or these places of hospitality need to have facilities that allow for long-term stay like kitchens and working spaces, things like that. And this again changes because your typical hotel room, for example, can't just have a bed and a desk. Now it needs to have several more things to make it work.

And that also influences the F&B cafe environment too. If you're designing a cafe with the intention of people to sit for a really long period of time with their laptop, et cetera, you have to design it differently. There has to be power sockets, there has to be wifi. You have to make the economics work because maybe you're not selling quite as much because you're offering like a higher standard of experience in the space. So this is also affecting certain markets more than others.

Again, a little bit about the localization. There's also a growing amount of attention to secondary locations. So for example, instead of your traditional main hubs, like for example, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Japan, London, Dubai, people are taking interest in like these sort of smaller places, like these sort of off the beaten path kind of places. And as a result, businesses, hospitality businesses are opening outlets in those places too.

and then they see what's unique and special about that space, and then they integrate it into their products. So that's been something that's adapting, that's becoming more prevalent, especially across Asia as well. And I have to say there's one more thing that's critical is probably market polarization. So we're talking about the rise of like, I suppose the middle class, for example, coming out of Asia.

Polarization as well in the sense of affordability because at the moment the world is going through a bit of upheaval, suppose, or instability. People are more careful with their money, but at the same time, they still want to go for random little trips. They still want to travel. They still want to enjoy the finer things in life. So the type of offerings that businesses need to provide customers like this have to be more diverse. It can't just be all luxury, luxury, luxury. There has to be a redefinition of experience.

Maybe it's done in really simple ways, like for example, facilities of hospitality business, or at the same time it could be a doubling down of the luxurious options because there are still going to be ultra wealthy travelers and there'll be even more in this time of polarization. So we're looking at this emergence of these new types of businesses that are

not necessarily fitting the mold of your traditional in hospitality and hotels like your traditional hotel. There might be some other things as well coming up like I said, digital nomad hospitality, lower target spending hospitality, things like that. it's an interesting time and we don't really know where it's gonna settle yet. So all we can do is watch and see if we can adapt ourselves. yeah.

Justin Sun (: 23:01

well said. hospitality is really flipping the script now because people are not just looking for a generic space. They're really looking for a 360 experience that they can really, get themselves into because I think people understand, there could be another economic downturn. There could be another-

John Chow (: 23:05

Hmm.

Boom.

Justin Sun (: 23:21

COVID era and you kind of lose the ability to be adventurous, to and, be able to really experience something instead of being staying at home. And so I totally agree with what you're saying. this is a topic that a lot of people have been discussing. What are your thoughts when it comes to hotel lobbies? I think there's a lot of

John Chow (: 23:30

Yep.

Justin Sun (: 23:41

lobbies that are now changing and becoming more multifunctional spaces. As you mentioned, there's maybe a rise in digital nomads looking for work

John Chow (: 23:49

Yes.

Justin Sun (: 23:51

spaces. There could be also a new rise of, you know, this like middle class folks traveling. So it could be a, you know, a be leisure trip, right? A business turn leisure trip.

what do you think?

are some trends or what do you think are some shifts that might be happening today that you're really interested in?

John Chow (: 24:10

I think this all comes back down to the, comes back off the whole, you know, I mean.

It's kind of cliched, but the whole post-COVID kind of changes that we're seeing in the world, right? So everyone's gotten used to this. A lot of people have become very used to this whole notion of working from home, working from different locations. They might live in a different city when they previously couldn't, and for example, were able to work in those places. And employers in many parts of the world have had to adapt, had to become more, I suppose, comfortable with their staff working in various different places.

And so whenever we talk about mobility, we start to talk about accommodation. And I think that's what you're getting at in the sense that because there's been such a big shake up in the way that people live and the way that employers, the things that tether people to a certain place, because that's changed so much in recent years, it's really creating these really interesting opportunities for hospitality companies to come up with new things. you've posted a bit about this on Instagram and your post. It's like,

how these hybrid type lobbies have appeared, like you mentioned. think that it's more like, rather than the hospitality mold, rather than the entire hotel mold changing from one thing into another, I think more so it's diversifying. So I think you're always gonna have those people traveling for luxury. I still love going to like big cities and just having these amazing like,

like city skyline views, right? Just looking out to the city, enjoying, or even looking out to the ocean and stuff and being pampered, you know, having like five star like soap or very slowly. These things are things that are never gonna go away. And I think that whole feeling of walking into a grand, just an immense lobby that's been designed by some of the best designers in the world, that feeling is just something that...

I fell in love with when I became a designer and I think a lot of people, they can't put a distinct figure on it like I can or a shape or understanding of the feeling, I think it's never gonna work. I think this type of experience is exactly why we have the term five star. But at the same time, as I mentioned earlier, there are people traveling for other reasons. And I think as money becomes a bit tighter as well, hospitality hotel brands are trying to find ways to utilize the assets in a more efficient way.

So what we see is the lobby is a great thing to talk about because in a traditional hotel, the lobby is often underutilized. It's just a space that feels grand where you walk in and you're like, this is great. But then the thing is over time, there are business travelers. There are these digital nomad people. There are these low budget travelers where maybe they don't walk into a space and feel the same way because maybe the hotel is targeting.

that level and they don't have the budget to create these insanely high-end spaces in the ground floor and take up that prime space with something that they could put some other function in. And so I think operators have looked at that and gone, what else could work in these entry spaces, in this prime sort of space? There's been a rise of cafe culture in Southeast Asia.

in this part of the world especially. I every corner now you can get an amazing artisanal coffee, right? So I think hospitality operators have seen that. They've gone, why don't we create these sort of third spaces in our lobbies at a certain class? So for example, it might be working hotels, sorry, travel for work kind of hotels, or maybe it's those backpacker style ones, but slightly higher end. In Hong Kong, there's a really good example of a hotel called

Ying and Flo in Wan Chai just on Anton Street, example, and they have a couple but they've basically turned their front space into a kind of almost cafe-esque style check-in. So when you walk in there's a bar which previously used to be the reception counter and now it's got like, you know condiments and stuff like drinks and stuff that you can buy and it actually is not a huge lobby. It's a lobby that kind of faces a very busy street.

You wouldn't think that you could sit in that space and feel comfortable and having a long conversation, but through the way they've designed it, you kind of see people sitting there and kind of doing other things other than just waiting. Like maybe they've got laptop, maybe they're doing some work. You know, maybe they've actually met some friends and they're just chatting there in that lobby space. So I think it's through creative design and just making certain environments feel certain ways and adding these additional functions in that

create these really interesting opportunities. And designers love that because like, you know, we can obviously stick to the norm, but what we love to do is step outside the box, you know, to try something different, to have the trust from the client to go, you know, this is what we do, but what's your idea? What do you think could be done in this space that we normally would say no to every other time? You know, right? So, so I think just the whole.

changing environment, changing behavior of people and customers is just creating this really interesting opportunity for new types of accommodation to appear. And I'm not sure where it's going to settle, you know, like it could become, who knows what we could see next, know, once technology is properly integrated, once the ideas from China have reached other parts of the world and vice versa, right? Yeah. So.

Justin Sun (: 28:52

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And I love how you mentioned Ying N' Flo Ying N' Flo, for those who listening, is actually under the Langham group. And so you can imagine Langham, again, a grand five-star hotel, is trying something different. And in this case, their format of their lobby is very unique and really touching on this multi-space concept that we're talking about. And I guess this is a great kind of segue into

The next part, which is experimental design and something unique and different, right? Putting a spin on something traditional. And you've worked extensively on hospitality, F&B projects. And so I would love to ask you who is more experimental in, know, through your previous work, does it tend to be restaurants, coffee shops or bars?

John Chow (: 29:37

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a really good question. I would say.

If I was to holistically say, you know, who's more experimental, I'd probably say cafes are an extremely experimental space because A, it's not a sort of traditional meal. Like you don't need to go to a cafe, right? But you have to have dinner, right? You have to have lunch. So you have restaurants that service these very fixed modes of human activity, eating, right? But at the same time, now you have these spaces called like cafes where you can go and

either chill or just have a quick coffee and leave. It's something that's really new and conceptual to Hong Kong because in Hong Kong we're always hustle and bustle. Traditionally, before I came to Hong Kong, for the longest time, it's always been about go, go, go, know, in, eat, out, basically. So now you've got this new concept of sort of coming in, sitting down, taking your time, right, and going, okay, well, what do do now?

Am I going to get kicked out by the staff or things like that? That creates this opportunity for something new. So in cafe space, I think there's been a lot of different models that have been experimented with by a lot of different groups. You have people coming in and implementing, you know, your typical Australian coffee shop, right? You have the classic Starbucks, which has been around for the longest time. And part of Starbucks mantra is just to let people chill, to let people come in and just stay for the longest period of time.

and not chase them away, right? That was part of what made Starbucks so appealing when I guess when they first came to Hong Kong. And since then, we've seen more boutique places pop up. There are like vinyl bar cafes. You know, there are cafes that focus on like vegan food, for example. There are other cafes that sort of, you know, all about health and like supplements and whatnot. And there are some that will have like, for example, libraries where you can sit and read books.

And of course, there are those quintessential pet cafes that you see a lot in Asia. So I think cafes give businesses a medium through which they can experiment. And it's not only cafes leading the drive. We've seen examples of traditional blue chip kind of companies, like insurance companies, for example. Recently, a couple of

very large insurance companies have opened cafe spaces and cafe offerings as part of their experience. Just close to my office in Wan Chai, for example, there's an insurance company called Bowtie and they opened a cafe called Bow Cafe. So as part of their office, there was actually a cafe that you could walk into and you could more or less either meet the staff of the insurance company or you could enjoy some kind of promotion. Like for example,

You've paid for XYZ policy and so you can enjoy free coffee for X amount of time, something like that. And there's a lot of different companies experimenting with this field. we've actually, we, Metagram is really experienced and we're experts in cafe design. We've had corporate companies come to us and basically say, hey, how can we incorporate a cafe offering into what we're trying to do? And I think the same is true for

hospitality spaces, like your traditional large scale hotels. They want to see how these interesting, this new trend of cafes can reinvigorate their offerings to make something a little more interesting. And I think that's what we've been talking about, about the lobbies of certain types of hotels, right? Like once you integrate that cafe and make it accessible to anyone off the street, well, that really changes the atmosphere of a hotel lobby. It really changes what that hotel lobby is. It changes how it reaches its customers.

It changes the conversation and dialogue that customers have with the staff of the hotel and the brand. So it's just one of those things that's created a lot of opportunities for a lot of businesses and a lot of business owners and cafe entrepreneurs. yeah.

Justin Sun (: 33:33

Well, I love

that you brought up how corporate companies are now thinking of extending their brand offering, extending this brand identity and really raising that brand awareness in a different way. In New York, Capital One, which is a bank, has created like a cafe integrated very closely with their ATMs and it's like a workspace as well. And so, as a young person, I'm sure...

John Chow (: 33:56

Hmm.

Justin Sun (: 33:59

walking into the space, being able to see the operations of a bank, you then just kind of build that trust, right? And resonate with this brand a little bit more and then you become a user potentially. And so it's very interesting that you kind of mentioned those projects in Hong Kong. I would love to, learn a little bit more the projects you've worked on. Maybe walk me through, some of the highs and lows of one of your favorite...

John Chow (: 34:11

Yeah.

Justin Sun (: 34:23

F&B concepts that you've previously designed.

John Chow (: 34:26

I can mention a couple, but one that comes immediately to mind is.

Alchemy Origin, which is a cafe that we worked on in Taiku Place in Quarry Bay. Taiku Place 2, yeah, in Quarry Bay. That project was done about three years ago now, I think, and we've won quite a lot of accolades from that project. A lot of design competitions we've had really good responses from, usually pretty high-up prizes, which has been really nice, and it's brought us a lot of recognition.

That space was amazingly tricky. So to paint a picture for everyone, it was at the base of a new tower in Quarry Bay. It was originally supposed to be some other kind of business, but what happened was it was offered to my client, who I'd worked with many times, the Espresso Alchemy Group, and he was offered to operate it. it wasn't really designed. The outline of the space wasn't really designed.

to facilitate just any old business. It was quite a unique curvy space. So if I was to map it with my hands, it was kind of like a curve or a teardrop kind of worm shape. And it's really hard to design spaces when it's so irregular in shape. I got to say that probably one of the lows for me was trying to figure out how to fit a program.

a cafe program into a space like that, trying to maximize seats, trying to incorporate different functions. We deal with, you know, like fire egress roots, standards from the food and hygiene department that you have to incorporate. And when you combine all those things, it's super tough when the shape of the space is unusual. So I spent weeks and weeks just hitting that design and trying to figure out the best floor plan.

Eventually, after quite a few weeks of work, I developed a kind of curvy axis that went through the center of the space. And everything was more or less designed off of that axis. And the outcome was a very unique space that blended into the context. So that's very important. Architects always love to design around context. So it blended into the context. It captured the colors of the brand, which was red and kind of earth tones.

telling the story of how coffee is grown at different topographic regions. That was the concept. And it was able to link into the site and sort of fit in seamlessly because of the shape. But at the same time, the colors and everything was very distinct to the brand. So it had an amazing narrative, the space, that basically everything that we did inside told a story.

we were able to incorporate some really lovely details because the client was willing to get on board with the vision and the idea of the brand itself. And the outcome was just a really nice space. So if you're ever in the area, I do encourage you to check it out. It's still there, even after three years, which is great and doing very well.

Justin Sun (: 36:58

the Alchemy Origin space is really cool, for those who haven't been, you should definitely check it out if you're in Hong Kong. I think you've done such a cool job in leaning into the curves and the restrictions that you had with using circular lighting and kind of this wave.

texture and, leaning into like that irregular space as you mentioned. you have had such a great F&B experience and.

You've also designed for a chain called Fine Print in Hong Kong, a F&B or cafe really. it's really cementing itself as a.

a strong player in Hong Kong. So I'm curious to hear, because you've worked on a couple of them, how do you create something within the brand guidelines of a growing company, but yet they all still feel pretty uniquely different?

John Chow (: 37:46

Mmm.

from company to company, the approach to designing according to a fixed aesthetic is different. certain clients are happy for many, different outlets to look distinctly different from the next and just carry the same logo. Maybe they're themed in different ways, right? But there's something about them that keeps it the same. And then there are other clients like Fine Print, for example.

where the aesthetic appearance and the atmosphere is critical and has to be the same across all of the different outlets. It comes down to defining a DNA of the space. We've been lucky because when we started working on Fine Print, they only had, I think it was maybe four spaces, I think, and we've done several for them since. So we started to work with them when they were...

still a relatively younger business. They were still quite established, still had an amazing reputation and we were so happy when we started working with them. But I think they had yet to cement that physical kind of DNA on how a space should look and how it's kind of tied to how it feels. And so because we got in early and we were able to work really closely with them, we were able to define

through say the materials, through say the way that the bar works, the experience of how a customer would come in, purchase a coffee, wait in a certain place, have the coffee come out in a very uniform manner throughout all the different spaces. That through those systems you recognize a similarity between the different shops. But because we've designed to context, every shop feels like it is of the place that it's born.

So one classic example is Fine Printer at Second Street in Ssangbuk. And that one is a lovely space that kind of has an outlet kind of facing a lane in a way. And this sort of space is beautiful because it just allows different modes of seating, which creates a dynamic, very Hong Kong-esque

experience, right? And when you're there, you're like, okay, this feels quintessentially like Hong Kong, mid levels or sort of Hong Kong Island. But then they also have an outlet in the airport just next to the arrivals, gate B. So when you come out, the first thing you see is a fine print kiosk. And that's an amazingly different environment to experience, because you're in this mega structure. And no matter where you are in the airport, you know you're in the airport. It looks like an airport, feels like an airport.

So how do you create this kind of atmosphere of chilled cafe dining within such a big place? And because the DNA is so distinct and defined in the materials and the process and the food, and because we've worked with them for such a long time and we understand what they're trying to achieve, we're able to create that sort of atmosphere within the space that you might find in other parts of Hong Kong.

And it's not just myself. Any good designer is able to sort of create these subtle things that normal people wouldn't be able to put their fingers on. These little things that can't really be put in black and white, we instinctively instill these things into the spaces we design. And there is a recipe, although it's hard to sort of write out, but it's just a kind of...

combination of a series of things, how the spaces put together, the materials, working with the operator to work on the processes so it feels like a certain thing, although it might not look specifically the same in every single thing. So yeah.

Justin Sun (: 41:02

Yeah, the hidden mini, what's it called? The hidden Mickey Mouse kind of things where you drop in these small little elements that really create and hone in on that DNA that is really hard to pinpoint as you mentioned, because it is true. a lot of them do feel kind of distinct, but at the same time, you know that you're walking into a fine print space because perhaps, especially for me, maybe the colors that they use, this warm.

this darkness, this coziness that they've created, ⁓ yet there's like that chic element, right? And they're all kind of different. you've created a lot of F&B spaces and cafes. what design elements have the biggest impact on how people behave inside a cafe?

John Chow (: 41:29

Right.

Yeah.

Okay. So I would have to say that in a cafe, it's about modes of seating. So for example, when you walk into a space, when you walk into a food court, okay, for example, what you notice is that the seating is all the same. You know, it's about efficiency, it's about density, and it's about speed. So you get in there, there's no period where you're thinking about where am going to sit?

because you just want to get a seat because everyone's rushing to the seat, right? So you want to get in there, get the seat as fast as possible, eat your meal, leave, you know? This sort of arrangement really defines the way people operate in the space. And it's basically what leads it to feel like a food court. So when we design spaces like cafes and even restaurants, we have to look at the way in which people sit, they come together, use the space.

In cafes, it's fast food at the end of the day, you know. But at the same time, we also have to consider on the weekends, someone might want to come in and chill, read a little bit of a book. So the type of offerings that you'd provide would be loose. Maybe there'll be stools that are used in certain areas to encourage, that will be attractive to people on kind of on the move. They're not going to stay there all afternoon. They might just pop in, grab a coffee, run.

They're really happy just to sit down in a stool and they're more available as well because people leave faster. On the other hand, you want to offer some banquets, some cushioned seating, for example. So a banquette, for example, is like a built-in kind of sofa kind of thing that you might see a kind of booth or a cushioned booth. That's what we call a banquette. A banquette is basically something that you would offer to allow for longer periods of time. You might sit down and you might stay for longer. You might enjoy that sort of experience a bit longer.

And different people walking into cafes want different things. So to provide a really good environment, a really rich environment, you have to offer different modes of seating, modes of activity. And this basically allows for more successful environment. The other thing that I have to say, which is critical and not many people notice, is lighting. So I work very closely with a company called Light Origin Studio, who is a lighting design firm in Hong Kong. They're an amazingly high-end

practice and they've won some international design awards at the top level so they're some of the best, one of the best line design firms in the world.

Quite often you don't realize lighting is as important as it is because most people they just have like, everyone has a relationship with light. You have the light in your room, et cetera, just in the center. Everyone has a relationship with procuring light. People pop into Ikea, they buy a lamp. People buy a bulb, they stick it in the ceiling. So everyone thinks they have an understanding of the mechanics of light. But when you go into the technicalities, creating atmosphere, creating emotion, creating hunger.

These are things that people don't realize can be achieved through really good lighting. love to use lighting designers. This is quite often we can't afford them. yeah, but for hospitality hotels, there's always a lighting designer involved because that mood and ambience, the thing that makes you want to go into a space and stay there for a long period of time while the design is one part is actually the subliminal things.

that create that X factor, right? Imagine walking into a bar and the place is like fluorescent, like hospital lighting, right? You'll walk straight out. That's an extreme example. Subtler examples can have similar effects, you know? And these things are super critical. So if anyone's thinking of opening a cafe, you want to look at daylighting, you know, that's really important. Daylight's super important. And if not, then just really good, effective, architecturally designed lighting is super important as well.

ambience and different modes of activity. These are the two things.

Justin Sun (: 45:07

Well, I love how you mentioned lighting because I think that's something that a lot of people forget. now, you I think post-COVID everyone has been trying to create a space for their own. You know, they're working from home. They have now access to a lot more AI tech to really visualize their design. But lighting is something that is really hard to accomplish, right? Because you might have a beautiful painting in your room.

John Chow (: 45:12

Yes.

Justin Sun (: 45:33

But without that proper lighting on it, you lose the entire focal point of what it's trying to achieve. And a lot of people kind of forget the importance of lighting, I think Hong Kong is very unique. We're very dense. We're very urban. And because space is so limited in Hong Kong, do you think that forces designers to be more creative? Has that?

kind of impact and challenge you in your previous work.

John Chow (: 45:58

Yeah, yeah, 100%, man, 100%.

It does two things, to be honest. It forces designers to be innovative, but it also limits designers. That's something that's a really important difference to define. In one sense, you work with such small spaces, so you have to be innovative, right? You have to create these nooks, you have to do all these things, make these gadgets that do this and that. But...

The act of creating nooks, acts of creating gadgets, the acts of creating innovative storage, that in itself in a way is a design style. So if all you're used to is this context and you're always thinking, how do I maximize space? You actually lose the ability to think about negative space, to not use space. So like any other context, there's common factors. And in Hong Kong, we have lack of space to deal with.

How does that affect me on a daily basis? I come from Australia. It's okay to have a big empty room. If I say that to a client here, why don't you just put nothing in the room? They're gonna be like, what? I paid X amount of million dollars to get this room. Why would I put nothing in there? It has to have everything, right? So you have these really interesting moments where it forces designers to be more creative, but at the same time, it goes back to what I said earlier about traveling and seeing the world, understanding different contexts.

of figuring out how to best utilize things. And I'll give another example. It's a kind of side thing, but I think it's probably a good thing to consider is that.

When I first came to Hong Kong, the designers that were coming out of China were, for example, still quite up and coming. Basically, they were still quite young in their influences and everything, and they're still relying very much on influences from outside designers. But in the 10 years, 12 years that I've been here, the quality of design has been unbelievable. Chinese designers are easily world-class, but however, quite a few of them haven't worked out how to get overseas and international yet.

If you go into China, travel over the border if you're based in Hong Kong or if you're in another part of the world, if you travel into China, one interesting thing if you're a Hong Kong person is all of a sudden you're faced with this abundance of space. This is probably quite a foreign concept to someone from the States or from Australia, we're used to that. But when you're used to not having space, the abundance of space then becomes like a new dimension. It's like, now I have to design

more stuff to fill this giant space. And that's a challenge in itself, right? So learning how to create empty space is something that designers that are used to small space have to kind of get used to. And I think China has had a lot of exposure to big space and that's helped them accelerate to the point at which designers from China are now. And yeah, tangent. So anyway, hope that makes sense.

Justin Sun (: 48:35

No, that's great.

And you're right, because I think what Hong Kong's constraint gives, again, this very distinct parameter to work around. And then when perhaps a Hong Kong designer is introduced into something completely different, such as space, it's hard to comprehend. And that's a very interesting thing to think about, right? Because I feel like most people will expect, designers want space.

John Chow (: 48:53

It is. ⁓

Justin Sun (: 49:00

But then when you're so used to the environment and the constraints, especially like in urban dense markets like, you know, Hong Kong, Singapore, Tokyo, you kind of forget that people actually might enjoy the lack of space and really pushing that creativity and that challenge to make it work. ⁓ Well, what, you know, that said, I'm curious to hear what types of hospitality concepts, you know, since you've worked on so many.

John Chow (: 49:16

Yes. Yeah.

Justin Sun (: 49:26

Do you think we'll thrive in Hong Kong in the next decade with technology on the rise, with perhaps this expectation or change in consumer behavior as many Hong Kongers venture into China? What do you think will work in Hong Kong in the next decade?

John Chow (: 49:42

Okay, so this is actually an area that's been really debated in recent years, immediate years. It's a unique situation because, well, post COVID, the type of people traveling is different. The world's focus and perception of Hong Kong is also a little bit different than what it used to be. The role of Hong Kong in the world as a finance hub has also sort of shifted. China's growth

has forced Hong Kong to sort of figure out where it stands next to the giant, so to speak. And so I think the type of people that will see coming into Hong Kong is going to be really different and unexpected over the next coming years. One example is, for example, I was at a talk with Alan Zieman from LKF Group, and he was saying that they were pushing into student accommodation.

into actual like shared accommodation, that sort of thing. And that was just really interesting from the father of LKF to say, because at the same time, Hong Kong has recently pushed to become like a kind of intellectual hub. They're trying to get more students to come over and study in the universities here. So with this rise of like intellectual property and money surrounding that, we need more accommodation for this type of

of traveler, right? People coming in that will be spending a lot of time in education places and then coming back and perhaps wanting to integrate with the people around them. This study is done to show that in innovative environments, the way in which people interact directly because of their space actually influences the level of innovation that comes out of it. So when you have co-working, co-living spaces where, you know,

intellectuals can gather and talk about ideas and stuff, you actually have a tangible increase of output coming out the other side. And that translates to money. And of course, that then translates to business. the type of I would think that the type of hospitality concepts might come out of the changes on the back of the new role Hong Kong has in the world economy and the type of role it has in the rest of the world. We're also going to see

more seepage from mainland China coming into Hong Kong. For example, travelers from mainland China coming to Hong Kong are now wanting different things from what they used to want. They used to come here for luxury brands, but to be honest, there are more luxury brands in China than there are in Hong Kong now, So they come down for experiences and this is a new concept, So they come down and maybe they're after something a little bit different. Maybe some of them decide to settle in Hong Kong and become these...

new residents of Hong Kong, right? And the types of things they're interested in is also different from the types of things that Western expats were interested in back in the day. For example, in Langkwaifeng at the moment, California Tower, I think there's a karaoke inside that never would have existed in the past. It's because the new type of customers that are coming to Hong Kong prefer to stay in one place and enjoy an evening together with friends rather than hop from bar to bar.

which is a concept that Westerners, people who grew up overseas in America or Australia or UK are used to and they really like doing. So hospitality concepts are definitely going to shift towards adapting to adopting some of these customer trends, customer behaviors. And at the same time, as Hong Kong changes, the market here always reacts to where the money is. if it's about research and development,

and more academics coming to Hong Kong, then I definitely see some kind of business rising up to meet their needs. And that's distinctly different from finance travelers or lawyers coming to town, right? There's probably less luxury. There's probably more interesting or dynamic offerings out there. We'll always have luxury, of course. It is Hong Kong at the end of the day. But at the same time, there's just...

So much potential for new things to appear. And I guess there's a growing demand as well. So I'm excited about the future.

Justin Sun (: 53:21

Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you bring up about student housing. think Hong Kong real estate market is really paying attention to that space. And I think most recently one of the regal hotels has been sold to Centaline to actually convert that into student housing. And so as you mentioned, we're going to see a huge change and perhaps a younger generation students and then hospitality concepts will probably have to adapt to that.

John Chow (: 53:38

Mmm.

Justin Sun (: 53:48

You know, as you mentioned, maybe cafes have to have more workspaces, better wifi. Hotels might want to then change their lobbies to attract more foot traffic, right? To become a placemaker instead of a traditional grand lobby and again, providing workspaces or places to unite and to bring a community together. ⁓ So it's interesting that you brought that up.

John Chow (: 53:48

Yep.

Yes.

Yeah, Anderson.

Justin Sun (: 54:12

Well, a lot of listeners of the show are aspiring hoteliers, designers, operators, or people who simply love the industry and want to be part of shaping it. And so, from your experience and background as a founder, as a designer, as an architect, as a leader, what advice would you give to someone who wants to

a career in hospitality design today.

John Chow (: 54:33

personally, I think hospitality design is one of the most exciting bits of design there is. As an architect, there's a lot of different fields that one can go into. And one of the things that attracted me towards being an architect was luxury, walking into these amazing spaces that had these million dollar views or like these

amazing details that would just make you feel like a million bucks, right? You just, it's just these, there's something about great, there's something about high-end spaces that just makes you feel elevated, you know? And it's that feeling that I had as a child that sort of led me to where I am now. So I would say that if you're a aspiring designer that has an attention to things like beauty and detail, and you want to find a client base that's willing to pay for that because it's their product.

Hospitality is absolutely the right way to go. Hospitality design is absolutely the right way to go. And there's a huge market for it. Just around the corner, have Macau, and Macau is just entirely hospitality, right? So there's plenty of opportunities in this part of the world to sort of get into really high-end level design, doing stuff that basically you could dream of, and someone will be there to pay for it and build it.

And that's the best part about it. So if you are aspiring to go into hospitality, I'd say find yourself in a part of the world where hospitality is appreciated. This part of the world is fantastic because of the amount of people, the amount of activity, the amount of movement and change that we see. It's just so dynamic. There are other parts of the world that match that characteristic as well. Like New York is one of those places.

Dubai as well. Once things calm down, it's, you know, several months ago, it was an amazingly dynamic environment. The types of things that you see there in hospitality are fantastic. The hotels are amazing and they're still amazing. They're well known for being some of the best hospitality in the world. So I think if you're aspiring to be in this area, I highly encourage it. But find yourself in the part of the world where it's appreciated because that's critical, you know.

If you wanna become the best, you gotta be in the most competitive places. And if you start up and find a role in somewhere like Hong Kong, you will be learning from the best. You'll be getting the best experience on the most luxurious, on the most high-end type design there is out there. And there'll just be a lot more to look forward to, you know, as you go forward into that sort of thing.

And I guess the same is true for people aspiring to be in hospitality as well. I have many friends in hospitality and there's just so many jobs and roles in this part of the world that keeps people in that industry. It can really support a lot of livelihoods, right? And that's what it's about as well. We want to have opportunities to advance, get better in our careers and sort of create things and feel proud about it, right? So to do that, yeah.

It's all about environment and context. So I hope that helps and is encouraging to anyone thinking.

Justin Sun (: 57:24

Yeah.

Well put, well put, because location is key. And then we're talking about hospitality, retail, spaces, F&B, location is key. And so you wanna be in a location that really supports you, as you mentioned. And so that's a really great advice. And of course, Hong Kong or this part of the world really has some amazing hospitality brands from here and headquartered here. You've met an Oriental, Shangri-La, Peninsula, to name a few.

John Chow (: 57:36

loops.

Yes.

Justin Sun (: 57:53

⁓ but

John Chow (: 57:53

Yes.

Justin Sun (: 57:53

would love to turn the table a little bit into something a little bit more fun. This is a rapid fire round. And so I'm going to ask you a couple of questions, whatever first comes to mind, feel free to spew that out. Okay. The first question is what is the most underrated hospitality design element in your opinion?

John Chow (: 58:11

Ooh, I'd say the rooftop. using these weird little spaces to become something really cool and special, think that's just something that could really be tapped,

Justin Sun (: 58:23

definitely. And I think the Empire State Building is a really good example because the rooftop is really what it's making the commercial building its money. And I think people kind of forget that people love to be top floor to see the views. ⁓ What is one design trend you think is overused?

John Chow (: 58:31

Yeah.

100%. Yeah.

Ooh, tricky question. Nowadays, I think there's a little bit too much kind of Scandinavian maybe. Yeah, I think, look, I think Scandinavian design is fantastic and beautiful, but it has been so influential over the last few decades that it's really worked its way across all sectors of the market.

And so it's overused in a sense. Everything is Scandinavian. It's very Scandinavian. Yeah. Scandinavian design when done well is absolutely spectacular. But let's be careful on using too much of this vocabulary. Yeah.

Justin Sun (: 59:13

Absolutely. What is, and maybe I feel like I know this answer, but what is a city with the most exciting hospitality design right now?

John Chow (: 59:20

I'm going to say Hong Kong now. Hong Kong's got a lot of exciting things going on. But to add to that list, would say Melbourne is actually going through a lot of interesting changes. There's some really dynamic things coming out of Melbourne. There are some Melbourne-based architects that are now breaking out of Melbourne and designing things all over the world. It's just a fantastic, weird environment where hospitality concepts thrive. And there's just an amazing ecosystem of amazing food, amazing coffee.

amazing designers that's just creating such a dynamic environment in Melbourne. So being Australian, I'm a little biased, but, and I, know what, I'll probably get, I'll probably get a bit of a bashing from my Sydney side of, ⁓ you know, compatriots who I'm from, but yeah, that's the truth.

Justin Sun (: 59:58

haha

But you I think you're right. Some of the hotel spaces too are really modern and really unique and really fresh. And you're seeing that across Australia, which is really exciting. That said, what is your favorite hotel lobby or perhaps cafe in the world?

John Chow (: 1:00:09

Mmm.

Ooh, okay. Hotel lobby. I gotta say, you know, opposite house in Beijing, in Sanlitun. I would say that's probably the thing that comes to mind first. It's just a stunning piece of work by architect Kengo Kuma and like just the way that he uses the giant curved fabric piece in the entry and the way that the space is just broken up is just memorable and spectacular. And the bar and the ground floor is actually pretty cool too.

So, yeah.

Justin Sun (: 1:00:42

Great. And how about your favorite cafe in the world?

John Chow (: 1:00:46

OK, that's a harder question because I designed those and technically I could say one of those. There is a. Yeah, OK, I will avoid saying any of mine and I'll go back to my roots in Australia. I in Sydney there was this one little cafe I always used to go to. It was there's a coffee brand called Campos in Australia that that was really the one of the big.

Justin Sun (: 1:00:48

Hahaha

It can be yours.

You

John Chow (: 1:01:06

early players and artists and fine coffee and they had this little kind of coffee kind of store, really small little coffee bar in Newtown, which is sort of like eclectic kind of hipster kind of part of town, I guess. people would line up outside and I used to go inside every Saturday and line up and have affogato, which is like a vanilla ice cream.

with a shot of coffee on top and you'd be cramped in a little corner, but the daylight coming in was spectacular and it'd be in the semi-residential area that just had this amazing atmosphere of different influences and graffiti and mission mash. And that probably has the fondest memories for me just because it was my childhood. It's not there anymore. It's still there, but it's changed. yeah, it's a place from the past. So I'm allowed to say that. ⁓

Justin Sun (: 1:01:48

No, I love that nostalgic and some amazing

vibes it sounds like. Well, last question here is if you could redesign one place or space in Hong Kong, where would it be?

John Chow (: 1:01:52

100%. Yeah.

Okay, that is probably a very tricky question. I think there's something about Hong Kong that's very regimented, you know? Like things are where you expect them to be. Wouldn't it be amazing for something to be out of

Justin Sun (: 1:02:07

Hahaha

John Chow (: 1:02:17

place, you know? Like, there's this wharf in kind of like Saingpun that you can sort of randomly walk onto and it's open to the public and can go out. Wouldn't it just be cool if there was just like some kind of like random warehouse kind of cafe, F&B offering where people could just flock to for no reason? And it doesn't necessarily make money, but you know, it's just an amazing place to hang out.

And maybe there are farm animals or something, I don't know. We have these spaces in Australia and if you're from Sydney, you'll get what I'm referencing. yeah, think there's just gotta be something unexpected and that could be a perfect place to put it. So yeah.

Justin Sun (: 1:02:53

No, I love that. Sometimes you got to lean into the absurdity and sometimes it doesn't need to make sense, right? Because you are creating a space to experience, to be part of a memory. Well, John, you spent your career designing spaces that shape how people experience hospitality.

John Chow (: 1:02:57

Mmm.

I hope so.

Justin Sun (: 1:03:10

What are some things that you're working on that you're most excited about?

John Chow (: 1:03:13

Okay, awesome. So what I've seen, and I guess this is a general thing, there's no specific project that I'm working on at the moment that I suppose captures everything, but I have seen over time in our last decade of practice that there's been a greater appreciation for just really nice design.

coming out of different places of the world. So in Australia, it's established, know, but in Hong Kong, 10 years ago when I first got, 12 years ago when I first got here, there was only a couple of artisan cafes, there only a couple of places you could go and just chill out and enjoy really great coffee. But now it's everywhere, you know? There are like Hong Kong cafes, cha chaan tengs, basically that the design is world-class, it's like really nice, you You walk in and you're like, wow, like a proper designer did this place. You know, it's comfortable, it's cool.

I'm just really excited about how everyone's starting to adopt these more fine concepts and are willing to take willing to spend a little bit more on the experience because they're realizing that just having one thing isn't enough, that you have to offer a full package, you know? And I've definitely seen that in the clients that have come my way. It's not just simply about get in, get out kind of thing. It's kind of like,

businesses genuinely want to create like an amazing experience that a competes with their competitors and does better, but B also just just as a fantastic experience for their customers. And I love to see that, you know, because it's better. It's just more excitement for designers like myself, more concepts that can be realized and just, you know, just a bulk of great potential spaces that could come out of this whole.

of this whole movement.

Justin Sun (: 1:04:51

And so you're creating new spaces here and there. Where can listeners follow your work and learn more about Metagroup?

John Chow (: 1:04:58

Awesome. The best place to look is we have a fairly active Instagram account.

that's the best place to keep up to date with our activities. And we try and stay active on that as much as possible with our newest projects, with any activities we randomly get up to, little insights on the market. And yeah, I just want to stay in touch and try and...

put my best foot forward and best ideas forward for everyone to sort of experience and see.

Justin Sun (: 1:05:23

Fantastic. Well, I'll drop those links in the show notes below, but John, this has been such a thoughtful conversation. I love hearing, the thinking behind how places and hospitality experiences actually get built and your personal experience about being a founder, growing different spaces in Hong Kong. And so I'm excited to follow your journey and thanks so much for coming onto the podcast.

John Chow (: 1:05:42

Yeah.

Thank you for having me, Justin. I appreciate the time as well and really wonderful conversation. I look forward to hearing more of your conversations with more movers and shakers in the future. So thank you.

Justin Sun (: 1:05:58

Absolutely. Thanks, John.

John Chow (: 1:05:59

Yes.